Skrivet av: Sudden | 2010/02/03

Bisarra flygplan, Saab UAV-projekt m m – en intressant slovakisk sajt

I somras hade jag kontakt med en slovakisk ingenjör vid namn Matej Furda som har en fint gjord sajt om underliga flygplan. Han gillar formgivning, att rita och att fotografera. Huvudvikten ligger på flygplan.

Han kontaktade i somras SFF forum för att få litet underlag om olika Saab-projekt. Ingen hörde av sig spontant och forumadminstratorn vädjade om att någon Saab-kunnig kunde vara hygglig och svara. Och jag kunde ju förstås inte låta bli att svara även om jag inte vet så mycket om Saab-projekt.

Matej har sajten  http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/ . Slovakiskan är ett problem men han visar vägen till Google översättningstjänst. Det finns många ”skoj” bilder i form av ovanliga flygplanprojekt genom tiderna, både lyckade och sådana det inte blev något av. Bl a hjälpte jag honom med några Saab-idéer som ”A 36” samt en STOL-idé av Aarne Lakomaa:

Bilderna är skannade  från denna förträffliga skrift, ett måste för dem som vill veta varför Saabs flygplan ser ut som de gör.

Matej skrev nu att han kompletterat sin sajt med uppgifter om Saabs projekt om obemannade flygfarkoster (UAV eller UAS som man visst säger numera) på http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UCAV04.htm  och önskar att jag tipsar om detta på SFF forum. Eftersom jag ogärna kliver in på ställen där jag inte är välkommen, skall jag be SFF webbmaster själv lägga in tipset på SFF forum.

Två bilder från Matejs sajt:

Sudden

Annonser

Responses

  1. Intressant! Jag passar på att tipsa om detta plan som faktiskt flög. En tysk ”flygande vinge”. Noterade det först i Microsofts Aircombat simulator

    Gilla

  2. Hej Hans A!

    Jo bröderna Hortens konstruktioner var ”icke av denna världen”. Man hittar på Youtube lätt filmer av radiostyrda modeller av Ho 229 (Go 229) som den hette. Egentligen såg de segelplan de började bygga i 30-talets Tyskland ännu mer extrema ut.

    Själv var jag ju fascinerad av dem också och för drygt 20 år sedan byggde jag en modell. Men fick den aldrig att flyga; byggde för tungt och hade inte kläm på hur man överför roderservonas utslag till rodren. Alltför mycket glapp. Den hänger nu på väggen. Här nedan ser man den i mars 1988 tillsammans med två experimentmodeller. Fascinerande, de klarar sig utan fena. Men de har en del ”kul” konstigheter för sig.

    Flygande vingar fascinerar fortfarande många serösa konstruktörer medan andra menar att det blir ändå bäst med separata stabiliserande ytor och en separat kropp.

    Läsning för intresserade:

    TWITT, alltså ”The Wing Is The Thing” på http://www.twitt.org/

    Doug Bullards sajt är det nu många år sedan jag sist var på. (Han gillar nog fortfarande mörk choklad, http://www.nurflugel.com/Home/bday_2.jpg ) Samt flygande vingar alltså. Ett exempel på vad han visar; en amerikansk utvärdering av en Horten-vinge:

    http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/ho_iv/Falvy_Pics/falvy_pics.html

    Nu finns några ex bevarade i bl a Tyskland (möjligen även det ovan visade). Bröderna var efter kriget verksamma i Argentina med nya versioner.

    Ser nu också att Matej Furda själv presenterar hur brödernas plan utvecklades: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/flyingwing.htm

    Sudden

    Gilla

  3. Tack. Nu blev jag plötsligt väldigt mycket mer upplyst. En HO 229 är tydligen under renovering i USA för att sedan gå till museum ( om jag googlade rätt).

    Man kan bara tänka vad den allierade pilot måste ha undrat om han skulle ha passerat detta plan under provflygning 1945. Kunde ha blivit den första UFO-rapporten kanske?

    Gilla

  4. Interesting enough that the Northrop´s volunteers together with the National Geographic built the replica of the Go-229 and it even passed the RCS (radar cross section) tests. The TV show itself is the show, meaning that some statements there are excessive and far from the reality, however it is worth to see.

    http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/

    Gilla

  5. Hello Hans and Matej,

    I am not updated on the Ho 229 status. I find at a quick look nothing at Mikael Olrog’s site ”Preserved Axis Aircraft” at http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/.

    Regarding stealth much can be read but I have not. My radar knowledge is almost purely theoretical and I know that the size of the echo from a complicatedly shaped body (e g with rotating propellers) is a pure statistical affair. I attach a diagram from my ”school-book” printed 50 years ago. Certainly we may describe this echo variation differently today, but the picture and text still hold: https://larsan13.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/radarekovariation_hansford.jpg

    I have enjoyed the story of the importance of the Soviet mathematician Pyotr Ufimtsev. His very theoretical results were discovered by US stealth engineers because the Soviets did not find them of any interest so the results were published internationally! As usual there could be much discussion of what inspired a designer and whom is to honour. Who is the father?

    See for example Wikipedia on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petr_Ufimtsev , more can be found by googling.

    Sudden

    Gilla

  6. Hi

    I liked that from the National Geographic even though it wasnt all correct.

    About the surviving HO 229’s it seems to be one left. Describing it as a ”frame” maybe indicates it isnt complete?

    ”The only surviving Ho 229 airframe, the V3, is located at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum’s Paul E. Garber Restoration Facility in Suitland, Maryland.”

    I remember several years ago a photo with the frame covered with dust. It looked very interesting indeed! At that time I didnt know anything about it.

    A question to you experts: which plane in service is considered to be most ”invisible” plane today? I’m a bit curious.

    The germans seems to have developed a lot of ”odd” airplanes. Very few seeing service though. One example is the Bachem 349 Natter. A strange combo between an airplane and a rocket

    Regards Hans

    Gilla

  7. Hello Hans,

    Both Matej and Mikael Olrog have pictures of the Ho 229 showing it to be in an incomplete (?) and dismantled state.

    There is very much to read on the Web on ”secret” German weapons. Much is rubbish, but i think that about airplanes, ”Luft 46” is quite serious: http://www.luft46.com/.

    German war material organisation was of course not rational all times, and many things that were ”improbable”, ”silly” or ”impossible” were actually realized. Many are surprised that Reimar and Walter Horten were able/allowed to accomplish what they did; building gliders under some clever pretext. But after all, it took small resources.

    I do not know what is the most ”stealthy” aircraft. It is a question of size, among other things.

    When I was young in the late 40-ties, many French aircraft projects (and other French products!) looked odd and backward to me. Also there were things too fantastic to believe in, like the ramjet ideas of René Leduc. I later learnt they were quite sound technically and also worked. Matej has some stuff on them: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/naporovypohon4.htm

    Sudden

    Gilla

  8. Very unclear question from me. I was thinking of the most ”stealthiest” military airplane today. Size between JAS 39 up to maybe planes like F18 Hornet

    I guess these small unmanned planes used in Afganistan for example holds the record?

    Gilla

  9. Good Morning, I have learned from Sudden to Google and found a lot of interesting sites under ”stelthiest”. I also found some ”strange” looking aircrafts, like the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk, for example. It can be found at
    http://www.as.northropgrumman.com/products/ghrq4b/index.html

    for example. However this might be put under what Hans A says about the unmanned planes used in Afganistan.

    Gilla

  10. Hello everybody,

    One has to remember there are other ways than radar to detect a flying object, for example by hearing or seeing it.

    Radar reflectivity can be reduced by several techniques: shape, the stuff the structure is made of, paint or other surface treatments. Finally, the radar frequency has a great influence.

    Non-metallic objects give ”pretty good” echoes I would say; ground, wooden aircraft.

    Maybe it is not always worthwhile to achieve radar stealth for an armed drone (”the enemy” has no radar).

    An illustrative figure of radar reflection is found on http://esl.eng.ohio-state.edu/~rjm/antennas/images/radar_cross_section.jpg
    Reflected energy is proportinal to the reflection cross section. A business jet can thus be seen at 10 times the distance of a swallow (energy back is proportinal to 4:th power of range) if my thinking is correct.

    A quote: Modern stealth aircraft are said to have an RCS comparable with small birds or large insects, though this varies widely depending on aircraft and radar.

    See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross-section (and other Wikipedia tutorials around radar)

    Sudden

    Gilla

  11. Hi Matej!

    I now took a look at the stuff you had gathered on the Saab UAS’es (or whatever name). Some were quite big and fast. I noted also that (radar) stealth was an important parameter.

    Many of the names had an intended pun which got lost in the translation. A ”Skvader” is a mix of a fowl (big bird) and a hare, ”Getöga” is ”a quick look”. ”Filur” is ”Joker” about.

    Swedish armed forces have fiddled with UAS, see for example
    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordon_motor/flygplan/article467343.ece
    http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/UAV/970_Ugglan.htm

    Two different Swedish projects are:

    1. http://www.foi.se/upload/pdf/mikro-uav-slandan.pdf and http://www.svensktmodellflyg.se/forum1.asp?viewmode=1&msgid=162250

    2. http://www.cybaero.se/

    Note: A ”skvader”: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/newsletter/skvader.html See also http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skvader

    Sudden

    Gilla

  12. Hi,

    Sorry for the delay. I was very busy with completing the fully detailed color 5 view reconstruction of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA. Teaser here:

    Hans A: good guessing about the stealthiest plane. It is the mix of the lot of variables, but it should be small, with straight leading and trailing edge (something between the flying wing and triangle), with very low cruise speed and without as much active systems as possible. So the result is low speed small unmanned plane for the optical reconnaissance. The RQ-170 fits that category in some way.

    Sudden: Thanks for the additional info. I paid attention primarily on the advanced and/or stealthy UAVs and UCAVs and because of that I didnt mention other types. The other criteria is domestic design – for example Ugglan is only a licence built french Sperwer. BTW is ”Skvader” the real name of the airplane that I wrote about? If so, I will correct it, because in english speaking sources it is named as ”Skvadern”.

    Gilla

    • Hi Matej,

      I am not at all familiar with Swedish/Saab UAV projects, ”technology demonstrators” and such. Most probably many names have been mentioned during the last years. For eaxample, I did see ”Getöga” and ”Skvadern” in a Flight article (on the Farnborough exhibition) from 2000 but just nowhere else.

      Regarding ”Skvader” or ”Skvadern” it is a question of grammar. Skvadern is ”the Skvader”, i e the definite form of ”a skvader”. (I guess its name indicates that it is a mix of or compromise between two projects.)

      It seems that the Swedish name of Saab military aircraft generally are used in English in their definite form, like ”Tunnan” (meaning the Barrel), ”Lansen” (meaning the Lance”) or ”Draken” (meaning the Kite; (because it is shaped like a common toy kite)).

      By the way, Urban Fredriksson that certainly knows very much about military aerial vehicles and follows the SFF Forum has given advice on the pronounciation of some Saab aircraft names on http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/uttal.html . (One of the oldest web pages I know.)

      In preparing this comment I found some web stuff that could be of some interest, if not for you so maybe for other readers:

      http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordon_motor/flygplan/article59197.ece

      http://defense-update.com/products/s/skeldar150.htm

      http://www.militartekniska.se/Dokumentation/Saab%20UAVs%20061019.pdf

      Sudden

      Gilla


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